This interview, conducted by Rick Edelstein on behalf of The Movement Newspaper, was first published in July 1980, Movement Newspaper Volume V Issue 7.
MOVEMENT NEWSPAPER: In 1963 I believe it was, you received the Mystical Traveler Consciousness. Would you describe the event and the conditions and agreements that you made with Spirit at that time?
JOHN-ROGER: That summer of ’63, the last of June/first of July, I was in a car wreck. A friend who was driving a convertible picked me up about a block away from home. When I got in the car, he said, “Put on your safety belt”, and I reached down to put it on. I noticed we had a green light. As we went through the intersection, another car, coming the other way, came through the red light and hit us right on the front passenger side. The collision threw me at the windshield, and I got a little concussion. Also, the seat belt wasn’t on all that tight as yet, and it ripped me across the stomach, which was really painful. Of course I immediately exteriorized from the body, although I didn’t really know that at that time. I just walked around in a fog for awhile. I went to see a doctor, and he said, “Yeah, that area is really sore and hurting.” After some X-rays, he said, “You have a bad stone in your right kidney.” I knew that. I’d had it for years and been aware of the pain in there.
So, about December 3 of ’63 I went to the hospital for surgery to remove the kidney stone. What was interesting was that from that July, I had been making out my will and telling all my friends, “I know this sounds maudlin, but I’m going to die.”
MN: You had a precognition?
J-R: Yes. Everybody said, “Oh, no, you just feel that way. You’re just saying that.” I said, “Yes, I know I feel that way and I know I’m saying that; and I don’t know why except that this feeling comes from a real, deep place.” So, I proceeded to do all that.
MN: You literally made out your will?
J-R: Well, it wasn’t something that meant going to an attorney or having it stamped by a notary public because I didn’t have very much. But it was like writing things down on a piece of paper and giving it to a friend who was going to execute it all. It would have been very easy for him to execute. He got one book and somebody else got another book…
MN: And the two records you left to…
J-R: The two records I left … but none of my debts. So I went to the hospital.
MN: Excuse me … were you a teacher at that time?
J-R: Yes. Let’s see, I’d been teaching about three years.
MN: High school?
J-R: High school, which was enjoyable on a whole lot of levels and extremely repetitive on the physical level. I got to know the information much better than the kids because I kept going over it.
So I went in the hospital, and the whole experience ran from December 3 to December 23. There was the surgery, the post-surgery and recovery time. At the time of surgery, as my consciousness was outside of the body, there was a conversation with spiritual forces and members of the spiritual hierarchy about what was happening, why it was happening, what I agreed upon, and what I didn’t agree upon. At one point I said, “Well, I don’t agree to keep my agreement because I don’t really care to be part of all that’s going to happen; and I can leave now.” The keeper of the keys, the spiritual force who is the focus and director of my work, said, “It’s really highly requested and it’s highly suggested that you do this. And we will blend with you so that you will be one with our spiritual essence and carry that awareness, and you’ll also carry all the same memories that you have up to this point in your life. It will be one.” I said, ‘Well, that’s fine.”
When I woke up from surgery, I was feeling just terrible, and for about nine days I was in and out of a coma-like state. At one point, I heard someone say, “He’s lucky to be here because he died “When I woke up, my mother, who had been with me before, during and after the surgery, said, “Well, who are you then?” I said, “I’m your son.” She said, “Well, not all of you, you’re not. There’s something else-you’re somebody else, too.”
MN: How was she aware of that change?
J-R: By looking in my eyes, my voice, the way I used words and I suppose “mama’s instinct. About December 21, I and a friend took her to catch an airplane home. After I put her on the plane, I started to hemorrhage inside, so they put me back in the hospital for another day or two, and finally they said, “Well, maybe that was just loose blood coming out.” And I thought, “Yes probably. It took me about two years past the surgery to be able to walk without walking into walls all the time. I would periodically find myself just walking into things.
MN: Was that because this new spiritual energy that you were carrying was new to you?
J-R: Yes, getting it into the body and integrating it. It was really hard.
MN: In your meeting with the keeper of the keys, did you still have your personality levels and your humor carrying over?
J-R: Everything seemed the same as before until things that I’d agreed to do came to an end, which was in about 1970 and 1971.
MN: So, as the embodiment of the Mystical Traveler Consciousness, you had completed your mission, so to speak, by around 1970 or ’71.
J-R: Not as the Traveler, but as the “Roger” embodiment. That was all finished in ’71 and when it was finished, everything that was “Roger” at that point no longer existed. It’s funny because people want to know a lot about me when I was little and when I was younger. Asking me about that is about as valid as asking me to tell you about a past life and how that applies to this life now. They ‘re different and separate. I don’t have a line across them where I could say, “Because of these things that took place, when I was little, this took place later.”
MN: I think people like to know about you when you were younger because we can identify with the fact that you were a little boy who had cavities and ate candy, when it’s sometimes difficult, on the basic self level, to relate to someone who is the Traveler Consciousness.
J-R: Right.
MN: So, we want that information in order to ground our knowledge of you. It’s a paradox because the Traveler Consciousness cannot be grounded.
J-R: Right, it doesn’t do that at all. To attempt to ground it is to change it from what it is to something that you’d like to think it might be so that you could understand it. And it just doesn’t work that way.
MN: Would you describe, for lack of a better word, your mission as the Traveler Consciousness?
J-R: Sure. I agreed to take two people to the Soul Realm, and as soon as I did that, my contract to this planet was over. I completed that in about ’72 or ’73.
MN: And now, in 1980, you’re still functioning and giving us incredible keys, Light, energy, and assistance. Is that strictly your choice, or is that Spirit’s choice … or is that happenstance?
J-R: It’s not a choice level. It’s what is taking place. Let me put it this way: Do you have a choice when you breathe out? You may choose to breathe in, and then breathing out goes with the first choice, even though you may not have agreed to it specifically. Or you may choose to breathe out, and breathing in going along with that choice, even though you didn’t choose that.
It’s really not a choice level. It’s just a level of-that’s what it is. The interesting thing about it all is that I, as an individual functioning personality, have never agreed to any of this. Even so, I said I’d do it. And it’s okay to do it. It’s also okay for me to disagree and still do it. But I’ve never really agreed to this.
MN: Isn’t the doing a manifestation of the agreement?
J-R: Yeah, but it’s not a manifestation of any mental or emotional process of agreement. What it is, is a direct result of doing and completing, even though my disagreement is at, say, a one percent level or a .1 percent level. I think that disagreement is probably part of what keeps me grounded on the planet.
MN: That’s what I was going to ask you. What is it that keeps you grounded? That one percent? Otherwise, why not go, since you’re free to?
J-R: That’s it. The one percent. And that one percent has as much karma in it as other people’s 100 percent has.
MN: Do you still have physical karma?
J-R: Sure, in that one percent.
MN: When other people are around you-and I’m thinking particularly of retreats where you’ve made yourself available to sit and participate in “spiritual bull sessions” for four or five hours at a time–what’s involved in that process for you? I’ve experienced people asking you questions dealing with everything from sex to Spirit to personal difficulties, and I’ve seen people release a lot of negativity and pain and then feel really cleansed and whole afterwards. And I’ve observed you the day after these sessions, when you have sometimes seemed so ill that it was difficult for you to communicate. What is that process, how do you protect yourself, and how dangerous is it?
J-R: Well, that’s a multiple question. First of all, there is an ability that I have to relieve people of their karma. And second, there is an ability to hold that karma back from people.
MN: What does that mean?
J-R: Well, you can take the karma off somebody, but unless you have the ability to hold it back from them, it can go right back to them. So if it’s going to go right back to them, why take it off in the first place? You might as well just leave it there and let them work it through. Finally, if you take the karma off and hold it off, it has to go someplace. Now it can be dissolved in Spirit. And if I can get away from a group of people, away from, the staff, away from everybody, and just be by myself for a second or two, I can release it to Spirit without it going back to anybody. Some of it, however, I have to hold on to until the person’s body and consciousness is strong enough to maintain its new integrity after the karma is released. The karma is like a magnetic attraction, and if the person is not strong when the karma is released, it will go right back to them.
MN: I assume you mean to the person’s spiritual body.
J-R: No, actually, their physical body and their habits and habit responses. The changes could take place in an hour, or they may take a year or two. It would depend on what the person is doing. So I hold that karma for the necessary time. Usually when I’m doing that for a person, I won’t be around them physically for a long time. The reason is that when they see the karma with me, intuitively they want to take it back.
MN. Is that the unconscious that wants to take it back?
J-R: Partially. They don’t want me to have it because they think it’s theirs. And in a sense, it is. But since we’re all one, it’s really ours. When I am involved in this process, I keep away from them physically so they will forget, so they will lose track of what that thing was that they had.
MN: During that process, where you take someone’s karma, are you in direct communication with their high self?
J-R: No, I don’t have to do that. I am in communication with their pain and with the process in them where they experience the pain of the karma. And I may just make that more attractive to me than it is to them.
MN: Has there always been a Mystical Traveler on the planet?
J-R: Always. The Traveler Consciousness doesn’t die. It’s not born, either. It’s not something that’s born or that dies. It’s something that is always in a state of existence, a state of being. For the most part, it’s just in a state of transformational appearance. There have been times when the Traveler Consciousness has resided with two or three individuals at the same time.
MN: But it always has a physical body on this planet?
J-R: Yes, it always must have that as a physical reference point.
MN: Do they all have the same “contract” that you have?
J-R: No. Every contract is very specific to the time and culture that is present.
MN: Would you share some of the names of past Travelers that we might know?
J-R: No, I’ve never been given permission by any of the past Travelers to reveal their names, not that they have to give their permission. I have revealed those who have given me the keys to this Consciousness. I’ve revealed those many times, acknowledged who they are and the line of energy that I work with. That is a way of honoring that lineage. In many senses of the word, once you have mentioned one Traveler, you have mentioned them all, because they have all been exactly the same, even though they have lived, physically, in different countries and had different names. The Traveler is always the same; it never changes. It resides outside of time.
MN: Speaking about time, is time and space just something that we who live finite existences invented, or do they exist in Spirit also? Are there measuring devices in Spirit?
J-R: Below the Soul Realm, there is time and space. Above the Soul Realm, there is not. And time and space differ according to which location, which sphere you’re in. In some places, long life would be 100 years; and in other places, long life might be 30 years. In the Spirit world, it’s the same thing. In the high astral worlds, the Summerlands, people live for a thousand years or more and think they’re in heaven and that they are immortal. The Summerlands is the “heaven” that almost all of the popular churches refer to as their “heaven.” It’s a very beautiful place and for a thousand years or so, people there have been receiving communication from their spiritual director in that world; so that is proof to them that this realm is, indeed, heaven. When you get to the Causal realm, which is higher than the Summerlands, a being might live there for three or four thousand years. And that certainly appears as proof that this existence is eternal. And yet, all of those Souls incarnate back-every one of them.
MN: When you say “incarnate back” do you mean back to this level, to the planet Earth?
J-R: Into a physical earth level, yes. Now that doesn’t mean that they have to come to this physical Earth; they do have to come to some level that is a physical earth level.
MN: Could you help me understand that better?
J-R: Sure. There may be a parallel universe that has a sphere that would look very much like “our” Earth but would not be called “Earth”. It would be called something else, but you could transport back and forth between the two “earths” and not discern much difference. You could be on the other one and say, “Oh, golly, this is just like being on Earth.”
MN: In one of your seminars, when you were talking about time and incarnations or re-embodiments, I believe you mentioned that the average number of life incarnations for a human being is 25,000.
J-R: Yes, between 25,000 and 28,000.
MN: Now, I assume, since people have been on the planet Earth for only two million years or so, that these incarnations or embodiments might have been on other planets, in other galaxies, other universes. Is that correct?
J-R: Yes. What’s interesting is that if you look at the Christian Bible where it says, “In the beginning…”, it might have been more accurate to say, “In the beginning of this time that we are referring to…” This is because there was a “beginning” prior to the “beginning” that the Bible mentions. There was very definitely something there. Do you have a Bible here?
MN: Yes.
J-R: Thanks. Now, this is interesting because at the very beginning of the Bible it gives the name of what was the true God. The first words of the book of Genesis are, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(Genesis 1:1) Now we are not talking about that God; that God is not the true God. “And the earth was without form, and void.” (Genesis 1:2) So we’re not talking about those. “And darkness was upon the face of the deep.” (Genesis 1:2)
That “deep” is exactly the one that is the God we know, the Sarmad. He is the God that is within all things, the great Spirit God that is all.
MN: The God that always has been…
J-R: Always has been.
MN: So, there is no beginning for Sarmad.
J-R: No beginning. It’s referred to here as “the deep.”
“And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” (Genesis 1:2) So that’s the spirit of God.
Then, “And God said let there be light; and there was light.” (Genesis 1:3) So God spoke out of the Spirit and manifested as God, and it was through the manifestation of God as God that creation was started and came about. It’s right there and very few people care to look at it. In fact, a lot of theologians may rip their hair out when they read this.
MN: Since we’re on the Bible and it says that God created all things, then God created the devil or the “Kal power” or whatever we want to call the forces of negativity.
J-R: Oh, sure. Out of God comes all things.
MN: Okay. So how can we curse the devil if God created the devil? How can we curse God’s creation?
J-R: God didn’t create the devil in the way that you might be thinking. Prior to the physical presence of Jesus the Christ, there really was no “devil” in the sense that we think of that today.
MN: Let me interrupt just so I can follow this. Prior to the presence of Jesus Christ on this planet 2,000 years or so ago, there is a recorded history of man for 10,000 years, a history that includes war, bigotry, poverty and all the negative things that we have now. Wasn’t there negativity in some force of existence present at that time?
J-R: Now negativity is not necessarily this thing that we call the devil.
MN: I see.
J-R: Negativity exists as a polarity expression to positivity. You get to know one by having the other. You know light by darkness, heat by cold, smooth by rough, etc. Prior to Jesus Christ, the devil was rarely, if ever, personified as a being. He became personified as a being with horns and cloven hooves, which is the image of the ancient god Pan of mythology and folklore, who was mischievous but certainly not evil. Many modern-day theologians talk about the devil in terms of a being with whom Christ fought and whom Christ defeated. And yet, all the Christians in the world are still fighting the devil, which means that they really don’t believe that Christ defeated him.
Well, Christ bridged the positive and the negative so that anyone who was under the bondage of negativity could turn to the Light without being stopped.
MN: Is it possible that the devil is just a symbolic, literal name for negativity?
J-R: I think it is symbolic because I’ve never met the “devil” in any kind of individualized form, but I have met negativity. There is also the being called Lucifer, who was the elder brother of Jesus, who became entrapped in negativity and has often been used to personify the qualities that we attribute to the devil. So there is that being, which has sometimes brought confusion to this concept of negativity.
I wouldn’t “fight” the devil if he walked in the door, but I might want to sit down with him and ask him how he has managed to frighten so many people. It’s interesting, again reading the Bible, that Jesus and this one we call the devil had a lot of conversations with each other. And do you remember where Jesus was first told that he was the Son of God?
MN: No.
J-R: It was not long after his 40 days in the wilderness; he had just begun his teaching. He and his disciples were traveling, and they met two men possessed of devils, coming out of the tombs of Gergesenes, who blocked their way. The men, seeing Jesus, said, “What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God?” (Matthew 8:29) And that is the first time in the Bible that Jesus Christ was recognized to be the Son of God, and he was so recognized by those possessed of devils. They said to him, “If you cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.” (Matthew 8:31). So they were the first to announce the mission of Jesus to release souls from the bonds of negativity.
So, Jesus cast out the devils who went into the herd of swine, and “the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters,” (Matthew 8:32) And those who kept the swine went into the village and told the people there of Jesus’ work.
MN: Earlier you said something about Lucifer being Jesus’ brother.
J-R: Yes, his elder brother whereas Lucifer was the Light bearer, Jesus Christ is the Light and Sound bearer. So Lucifer came down to physical embodiment with only half a plan, and Jesus came down with the whole plan and the ability to execute it; and that’s the big difference.
MN: You’ve referred to Jesus many times as “Jesus the Christ,” the “Christ” being an office.
J-R: Right.
MN: Before Jesus manifested this consciousness, were there others holding the office of the Christ on this planet?
J-R: Sure, but not to the fullness that he held it. As an example, say that there is someone who is president of a university where there are 2,000 students and there is another one who is president of a university where there are 20,000 students. The one that is the head of 20,000 students has a lot more power, authority and recognition than the one who is head of 2,000, although both are university presidents.
MN: I see.
J-R: It’s more of that type of comparison. The field of activity that Jesus had was a much wider field than anyone holding the Christ consciousness had prior to that time. There will be a Christ action around the year 2000 or 2010, which will be a much wider field of activity than anything we have seen so far. A lot of Christians think Jesus is going to come back in a cloud. But what if he is born the same way he was before, and raised, turned down and rejected’? He may be overshadowed by the Christ, and then receive the Christ in the full manifestation, fuller than anything we can imagine. I think it’s going to surprise a lot of people.
MN: Last night I watched a rerun of an old TV program. The story line included a character who was haranguing the pimps for selling women; he was arrested for disturbing the peace and he refused to give his name. Finally he gave his name as Jesus Christ. The personification of this guy was the essence of sweetness, love and caring; and one of the cops said. “Suppose he is? Why take him to Bellevue?” It was played very beautifully. I thought about that and wondered if Jesus did return today, would we recognize Him?
J-R: Would everybody?
MN: Would a majority?
J-R: They didn’t at the time He was here before. In fact. He was called a worker of the devil, a blasphemer, all sorts of names. We’d probably be up against the same kind of thing today in the orthodox, fundamental religions.
They might say that Jesus has to behave exactly the way it says in the particular scripture they follow, and if He doesn’t come up with those actions and words, it isn’t Him. That’s trying to bind the Christ to a piece of paper in a book that’s been in translation and under misinterpretation for a couple of thousand years. It won’t work too well that way.
MN: You mentioned that the Christ consciousness may possibly manifest around the year 2000.
J-R: Shortly after that.
MN: After that … in what form? In a physical form?
J-R: Possibly as a physical form. And at the same time, the Christ, as a seed, is in all Light bearers. The Light is in me and in you and in everyone. It goes back to the concept that God made man in His own image. I don’t think it was the physical image, but rather the spiritual image or the etheric image, which is perfection. Then in the course of time, it solidified and took upon itself the elements of the earth. Those elements are changing all the time.
As the elements of the earth change, man’s physical form will change right along with that, because we reflect primarily that. So as you get a lot of pollution in the ground, air and water, you’re going to get a genetic change in man, and man will start to look different in some fundamental ways.
MN: What about spiritually? Will there be changes spiritually or will that remain consistent?
J-R: Spirit is perfect and will remain perfect.
MN: Does our spiritual growth reflect a direct correlation to our physical actions and behavior?
J-R: I’m not sure how you mean that.
MN: Let me clarify, then. Let’s say there is a doctor who does really good work. He hasn’t become consciously aware of the Mystical Traveler Consciousness, and he doesn’t consciously participate in spiritual exercises. But he does do loving, marvelous service to humanity. Then on the other hand, there is a stockbroker who loves to make money and does it very well. The stockbroker is connected with the Traveler Consciousness and does spiritual exercises. How does what they do relate to their spiritual growth and advancement?
J-R: The one who is connected to the Traveler is going to grow faster spiritually because he has direct spiritual input.
MN: Even if he may not manifest as much direct service as the doctor?
J-R: It’s kind of hard to say what kind of service he’s manifesting, and what kind of service our hypothetical doctor is manifesting. Given that they’re both manifesting the service of their professions, the stockbroker would gain. He would gain so much more – tremendously more and at a much higher rate, because he is consciously participating in the process of leaving the maya and the glamour of the planet, not to return. The doctor is not – he is simply doing good works and that’s not to put down good works, but the two processes are different.
MN: Is the major differentiation spiritual exercises?
J-R: Spiritual exercises make a big difference. Look at it this way: There are two children-one who doesn’t move in the crib and the other one who does all the healthy activities of a normal, active child. At the age of 10, which one is going to be healthier and go the furthest in life? The one lying in the crib may be happy and loving and doing good things, but the other one is obviously gaining. Can the still one gain if he starts moving? Sure, he’ll gain at the rate he moves. It may be that the one who started moving first will die at age 15, but at age 15, he has done 100 percent. The one who didn’t start walking until he was 10 may live to be 50, and before he dies, he may have outstripped the one who died at 15. So it can balance out in all sorts of ways. We can’t ever, with any kind of accuracy, relate what appears to be on this earth level, with the spiritual flow. We just can’t. That’s why Scripture tells us to let the Spirit be our teacher. We don’t need man to teach us. We may use man to give instruction and guidance and direction. But it is the Spirit that teaches, and that’s what we want. That’s why the inner teachings are the key to the Movement. People often are unhappy when they come to me outwardly for advice and I won’t say too much to them. Sometimes I’ll just indicate that the way they are going won’t work too well, and I look in the other direction. At that point, they can usually find the better way themselves.
MN: And even that you don’t offer too often. You let us make our own decisions, fall on our own faces, and allow us to learn through our own mistakes.
J-R: That’s the strengthener. That’s how you really learn.
MN: It’s true.
J-R: It’s easy, with money, to buy off people’s pain and agony, but then you have to keep buying off their pain and agony, whereas if they go through it once, by themselves, they may say, “That’s it, never again.” There’s real economy in that, and Spirit is always a state of economy. It’s never a process of waste.
MN: Many religions, particularly Eastern religions and spiritual groups, advocate meditation, and they will give people mantras, which are often the Hindu names of God. In MSIA, we do spiritual exercises where we chant a tone that we have received.
J-R: Or the Word.
MN: Are these tones also Hindu or Sanskrit names of God?
J-R: They are God’s names as God flows through those realms.
MN: What’s the difference then between the process of simply repeating those words as in meditation and the process of spiritual exercises as an extension of the energies of the Traveler?
J-R: It goes something like this: Suppose you gave me a list of things you wanted from the store, and you gave me a check, signed by you, to get those things. The store knows your checks. While you have been giving me directions, someone has overheard our conversation and they think, “Oh, I’ll go and get those things for him.” So, they go to the store and pick out all the things you’ve asked for and when they go to pay for it, the clerk says, “Where’s his check?” And they say, “I don’t have a check.” Chances are pretty close to 100 percent that they won’t let you have the merchandise because you have no proof that you have received authorization to get it. Without the check, which is the sign of authority, all you have is a bunch of words.
The process of initiation is similar to that story: Someone can give you initiation tones, which are the same words that I give, but when you go to “collect” there is no authority in your word process. You cannot be a “thief” and get into heaven. You must come into the spiritual domain through the correct line of authority, or it does not work.
MN: That’s clear. When we die, do we take with us an awareness of consciousness? What I’m thinking is, if someone has been doing their mantra for, say, 22 years, and they die and go to “cash in”, and they get to heaven and are told “That was a phony prophet that gave you that mantra. Sorry, it doesn’t work,” have they blown it?
J-R: Is that possible? Oh, sure.
MN: There’s a veil of forgetfulness that falls when we are born here. Is there a similar process happening when we “die” here and are born back into Spirit?
J-R: It depends on where you’re born back into Spirit. The answer might be “yes” or “no”. When you “die” on this earth plane and are born again into Spirit, you are born to the level of your Light and Sound recognition. If you can hold 100 watts of Light here, then you can travel with comfort in Spirit anywhere up to 100 watts of Light. If you try to go up to 200 watts, that’s too bright and you won’t be able to handle it. You can’t go higher than your level of evolvement. You can’t kid your way up any higher.
MN: As initiates of the Traveler, some are initiated into the causal realm, some to the mental realm, some to the etheric realm, and there are a few initiated into the soul realm. When a causal, mental, or etheric initiate dies, what’s the process?
J-R: Everyone who dies must pass through a being that we call the angel of death, Yama, who we sometimes call the “cruncher”. He calls your name and you pass either to his left or to his right. If your name is called to his left, you go into the Kal or negative power, and those forces chew on you-and that’s pretty literal. If you ask, “Do they actually, physically, open their mouths and bite on you?”, that’s pretty much what it might look like.
MN: You mean I might be a piece of celery for Yama?
J-R: Sort of like that. At the time of meeting Yama, if you are an initiate, you might call out your mantra and call for your teacher. If that teacher does not have the ability to be there in that non-physical place to speak out for you, then you are turned to the left side of Yama. If you are an initiate of the Traveler, then the Traveler or his angel, who is the Archangel Michael, stands there with you and writes your name in the Book of Life so you do not go to the left. You go to the right. And there is no way that the angel of death will allow you to go to the left because if that is allowed, the Traveler will go into hell to get you because you are not part of the negative territory.
And if the Traveler goes into hell, then all the spirits there are released from their bondage to the negative powers-every one of them. The negative power will not allow that to happen, so they will throw back the soul of that one who is part of the Traveler’s domain.
Many people who have sustained physical circumstances that would ordinarily lead to death and have lived, have said, “I had to come back.” They could not go into hell because they were marked as the Traveler’s initiates and their spiritual path includes maintaining the physical body so that they can complete their karmic debts, start up the spiritual path of unfoldment and leave this land of reflected Light.
MN: Then within the process of moving to the right side of Yama, are there still different levels wherein Spirit resides, like the causal, mental, etheric, etc.?
J-R: Sure.
MN: Then if we die as a causal, mental or etheric initiate, would we stay at those levels or go with the Traveler?
J-R: Both. You go with the Traveler if you are his initiate. And then, which level you go to depends on how much karma you’ve worked out. First of all, you may be an initiate on the mental level and still not have finished all the karma from the astral realm, because in the initiation process you move through to the highest realm as quickly as possible to dissolve as much karma as possible.
But let’s say, just as an example, that you had dissolved all your karma on the causal and mental levels, and you are an etheric initiate. So when you pass into the Spirit worlds, you would go to the astral level and you would just look at that, and then you would go on to the mental level and you would look at that, and then you would go to the etheric level. You would work in that level to finish dissolving the karma there, and then you would go on to the soul level.
It’s very hard to go above the soul level in one lifetime. It’s hard. But it’s not hard to break through the soul level as a soul level initiate. And one who is a soul level initiate will progress much more rapidly through all the lower levels. It’s rare, indeed, for one who is not a soul level initiate to go into the inaccessible realms above the soul. That’s very rare.
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Look for Part Two of the Interview in an upcoming NDH.
