Kay Turbak with John-Roger on PAT IV in Israel, 1985
Long-time MSIA minister and initiate, Kay Turbak, was introduced to John-Roger in the early days of the Movement. MSIA minister, Dawn Jenkins, interviewed Kay as part of a project to compile stories from elders in MSIA. This article is excerpted from that interview.
Dawn: Well we’re here today for another MSIA pioneer interview. And today we’re welcoming Kay Turbak. Welcome Kay.
Kay: Thank you Dawn. It’s just such a pleasure to be with you.
Dawn: So Kay tell me, how did you come to meet John-Roger?
Kay: It’s a fascinating story in that I was a student at University of California in Santa Barbara back in 1968 I met a lot of people who are in the Movement, and I didn’t really know about the Movement then. I met Muriel Engle who was in charge of the educational opportunity program at UC Santa Barbara. And I met her because I was a troubled student back then. I also met Robert Waterman. He was a student just about to graduate. It was a very interesting time back in 1968. Robert Kennedy had been assassinated, Martin Luther King, and so I was just really kind of going through a lot of turmoil.
I was a religious studies major, but I really wasn’t finding what I wanted. After I met Muriel, I became very curious as to why she could hold so much Light, and in the midst of what was going on socially and politically, and the Vietnam war going on. Also I wondered, you know, what is it about these people that they have so much going on in their lives, so much Light?
I was just interested in another level of consciousness and awareness that I wasn’t getting through the academic setting of UC Santa Barbara or through my meditation or anything else.
I met quite a few students who were getting involved in MSIA at that time. I want to say that there’s always a perfect timing for people when they come into what I call a consciousness where they know that they’re in the Movement. My first seminar was April 8, 1969. I remember that more than any other date I can remember. I mean, I forget a lot of dates now but that date is as alive to me in my consciousness as my birthday.
And what’s so remarkable about that is, I had wanted to go to seminars before that. It just wasn’t my time yet. What was going on was Edgar Cayce had made a prediction awhile ago, way before he left the planet, that California would have a major earthquake and there would be a lot of people suffering — that California would fall into the ocean. And what intrigued me was John-Roger had told his students that they would be protected, the earthquake would be inside.
So what came forward for me at Easter time, the earthquake came inside. It was just, something in me awoke. The Christ in me just awoke. And I just couldn’t believe what it was. And it wasn’t until I actually showed up in the seminar room that I had this understanding that something is going on in my consciousness. I went up to John-Roger after that seminar and I introduced myself, shook his hand, and it was like my life was never the same. I couldn’t sleep for days after that. It was truly an amazing experience, and just you know, to say it’s a peak experience doesn’t even begin to describe that awakening. There’s a quickening and awakening, and with that there is a gentleness that comes in too. I mean it’s, you know, as if an atomic bomb went off in my consciousness and yet there was a peace that was there too.
It’s a paradoxical effect when you come into the Movement. About that time there were a lot of students at UCSB that were really interested in that. We would go to seminars in the Thousand Oaks area. But when we actually had our summer break we would go to seminars every night of the week. There were seminars at that time in the LA area and Southern California, Cerritos, and we would go to as many seminars as we could.
Dawn: So where were you living during that summer?
Kay: Well I was a student at UC Santa Barbara. And that summer I was not quite ready to graduate. And, you know, the troubled student. I had quit school three times and was struggling with that. So I was living that summer with my parents, but going back and forth. There was quite a contingent of students in the Movement at that time, and we were under kind of the care of Jack Reed. And he was a very, very good friend of Robert Waterman. We would have beach parties on the beach in Santa Barbara. We would just get together socially as often as we could.
Dawn: Um hmm.
Kay: That often was my draw at that time. You know I just was looking for that social connection, that upliftment. A lot of my friends and people around were taking drugs, and I wanted to let go. I did take drugs for a year, and then threw all my drugs away the night before I came to my first MSIA seminar.
Kay: Just threw them down the toilet. For no reason, I just got up at midnight, threw my marijuana down the toilet and said “that’s it.” There was a force that came over me and I didn’t understand it until I showed up in the physical room of the seminar, the living room of Wanda Mansbach. And then I said “ok, my life has changed.” It was truly — there’s an expression born again — that was my born again moment.
Kay: I was born again. I do not need to be in that lower energy of drug taking or with certain people. I gave up all my friends who had anything to do with drugs, or even wanted me to participate in that. It was just really, really a transformation.
Kay: A born again experience for me. And, you know it was just really amazing. My life was never the same after that. I still struggled to find out who I was and what I wanted to do, but I knew that I was on a path that would lead me somewhere. Back into more of who I was.
Dawn: Beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Were you driving from Santa Barbara to go to Cerritos and those other places? Or where you staying down in this area during the summer?
Kay: We would drive. We would meet. There were groups of us. A man named Matt, I don’t know where Matt is now in this consciousness. Rick Greene. Whole bunches of us would just drive. And we would try different seminars, different times of the year. I was still involved a little bit with an Indian organization, Hindu. And so I went to teach yoga that summer of 1969. But, after my stint of learning my yoga program was over with, people picked me up in San Diego, took me to the San Diego seminars, brought me up for my first Light Study in July of 1969. So there was that willingness.
Dawn: To get out and go places.
Kay: We didn’t call ourselves ministers. There were no ordained ministers back then. But people would accommodate. I remember my first Conference in 1969. We spent the night on the floor in someone’s house in the LA area, so we could go to the Conference. I mean there were like six or seven of us. You know we just had that “can do” attitude — go wherever, you know, wherever the Light would lead us. We were just very…
Kay: Yes very spontaneous at that time, definitely, so.
Dawn: And willing to put your body on the line to get where you needed to go.
Kay: Exactly. Of course that’s the youth and the energy. I would hitch-hike all around town. I became a yoga teacher in 1969-70 and I had quit school for awhile, and I was teaching yoga at the Sai Baba center. And I was hitch-hiking all around the Southern California area, so I could go to seminars, or to go to J-R’s house. You know it was pretty audacious back then.
Kay: I just had that “Ok whatever, I’ll be wherever I can to be in that energy.” It was such a draw to me.
Dawn: That sounds like you were spiritually protected too.
Kay: Yeah. There were some moments, after Sharon Tate got murdered in LA, I wasn’t hitch-hiking around the Hollywood Hills anymore. I said “ok maybe I can get a little more practical.”
And that’s the one thing — a salient point that is so exciting for me to share — what I’ve learned through the Movement is to become practical. J-R calls it practical spirituality. “Check it out. Does it work for you?” I had this kind of pie in the sky attitude especially being a religious studies major. I wanted to go off to India. I bought several plane tickets. Got my cholera shots and all those other yellow fever shots. I just wanted to do what I thought was the spiritual thing.
What I learned back then — and that’s not easy for a 22 year old, you know, when you think you know everything — just to really get practical. When I was 23, J-R said on one of my Light Studies that my karma shifted, and he said you’re going to be, and he called it “hard headed Hannah”. I had never heard that expression. He said “you are going to work, you’re going to finish school, you’re going to be practical.” And he really gave me some groundings. Being on this level, to really observe: was this working for me to just take off on a moment’s notice to go to a seminar? Quitting school so many times, thinking “oh it doesn’t matter.”
So I started to really work out my karma, and part of that was just being practical. It wasn’t easy for me. You know, I wanted the more flamboyant, gypsy consciousness, taking off doing whatever I wanted to.
After I graduated from UC Santa Barbara, I started to work and started to learn money management, skills like that. Practical skills.
Dawn: Well you touched on two interesting things. One was Light Studies, would you share a little more about that?
Kay: Yes. What J-R did back in — I think he started them in 1968 — I had three of them. What he did is he offered what he called a Light Study. It was basically like an interview. He recorded it on a reel to reel recorder, which we later had to translate into other mediums such as cassettes. And you could ask him any questions that you wanted to.
When he first started out, he started measuring people. He would measure their heads, physiognomy he would call it. He could tell how big your ego was by how widely spaced your eyes were, and if this part of your head were wider then you had a wider ego. He could tell you what your ego shift would be like. At that time, he could also read a lot of different levels of consciousness. He told me specifically, my Soul had decided to come in again through the influence of the planetary systems — through Mercury and Venus. And a lot of us had that. So it was the Venutian consciousness of loving beauty, emotionality, and the Mercurian consciousness of that mercurial wanting to know, wanting information. So those were the two planetary influences.
He read first lifetimes, different past lives. And they were so familiar to me. He said, you know, talking about this lifetime in Jerusalem, “you know you’ve been there. You know we’ve been in Jerusalem. We’re walking the streets together right now.” It was just an amazing experience. He validated so much for me.
He also gave people some real specific information: what their life pattern might be, what they needed to do to complete certain karmic patterns, the practical stuff. He would tell me how to manage money — have a money magnet. You know, keep 10% of everything you make, and then have that as a money magnet. Don’t spend it. So there was a lot of practicality in his wisdom too. I have one more little addendum if that’s ok to share about Light Studies.
Dawn: Well absolutely.
Kay: What I found is that people either misinterpreted the information, or misused the information, not for their highest good. It became a glamour thing. Like some of my past lives.
Well, I’ll give you an example. Well, I was with Jesus, which is really true and I knew that. I knew that before I even had my Light Study. People kind of used the information not necessarily against themselves, but it became a glorification, and not really using the energy to be in the here and now.
People also didn’t really use some of the suggestions J-R gave. I can feel that energy come in when I go back into that Light Study energy, and it’s not relevant for me.
So, I just wanted to make it known that, you know, people don’t need Light Studies in that way. We were spoon fed and hand fed. We could ask J-R questions in Light Studies. I know. I had three Light Studies. I signed up for my fourth and it didn’t happen. But people would just do anything they could just to be with J-R and ask him questions. They didn’t necessarily use the information as much.
I want to segue into the differences in how I see the Movement back then and John-Roger and what’s available now. A lot of people seem to have this attitude of: “Well if only I would have been in the Movement in 1968 or the early ‘70s, you know, I could have been with J-R so much. I could have, you know, been at his feet, or shook his hand, or spent more time with him.” We were really spoon fed at that time. Especially those of us that lived in the Southern California area. We were kind of babied, you know. The candy was we got to talk to J-R and be around him.
J-R continued to do live seminars until he quit teaching school, which I believe was 1970-71, something like that, and then MSIA became a formal church. Before that, he would teach school during the day, and then at night he would do seminars. And then during the summer, he’d travel all around, you know, placing Light columns or doing Light work. What’s amazing is that after the seminars ended — and we got to share during the seminars — we would do sharings so everyone who wanted to could share something. Afterwards J-R would be available for us to meet. We would go up and ask him a question and he would stick around and stay.
And we became so dependent on that. It was just so thrilling to be able to do that. I didn’t do this, but a lot of my friends would call J-R at, you know, anytime, night or day. I remember one of my very close friends would call him about boyfriend troubles. She would call him on Sunday night or whenever, and he would call her back. It’s to me, amazing. What that showed me is that — at least for me, I’m just speaking only from my experiences — I developed a tendency to depend on the outer form, and to look for outer answers.
Muriel Engle, kind of our spiritual mother in the Movement, had the very first MSIA seminar in her home in Santa Barbara. She would invite J-R up to see her a lot. And we would go, you know, have lunch with J-R, or he would be at Muriel’s, so we would come around. We could ask J-R questions, and I’d ask J-R, go up to him, not a formal MSIA seminar, but just a small very intimate gathering. So I developed kind of that dependency pattern.
Other people were starting to join the Movement. Florida became a really hot spot, especially in the ‘70s, and people were clamoring for seminars. People were clamoring to see more of J-R. People in outlying areas. As the Movement grew and grew and grew, especially in the early ‘70s, J-R was traveling more, going up to Berkeley, going to Florida and other places and doing seminars there, and doing Light Studies.
People also had a different way of approaching that, unless they moved to LA and wanted to sit at the feet of the master. I witnessed people starting to go inside more, starting to really find that Mystical Traveler, that Inner Master, inside themselves. For me, I think I was slower in doing that because I had the availability of going to live seminars all the time.
In 1974 I moved into Prana, which is kind of the spiritual home of MSIA. It’s located at 3500 West Adams Boulevard in Los Angeles. It still exists as a beautiful structure. And we called it the “Home of the Traveler.” J-R would come a lot and be with us, and meet with us, have dinner with us. He would do seminars, on Wednesday and Thursday nights, every other week. So we had him available so much of our time.
At that time even though I was doing a lot of spiritual exercises, and inner work, I was still depending on the outer form of the Traveler. Maybe I needed more of that, you know hand holding, you know, spoon fed consciousness to really establish that inside myself.
Dawn: So when did Prana open?
Kay: Prana opened in 1974. I moved in I think in August or September. Prana had opened a few months earlier than that. So it was just really an exciting time. I mean, it was hard work of course, we did what we called dharma. Dharma is action, basically it’s being of service, putting your body on the line. We were very devoted, especially in those early years. We made our own yogurt. I ground my own flour. I was the baker. I ground my own flour, for our pastries and cakes. We made our own sprouts. We had these wonderful dinner parties, we would invite people in and charge them five dollars for a dinner which seemed very expensive back then in the ‘70s. But we were very, very devoted. We did a day of dharma every Saturday. We did housekeeping, we did a kitchen stint. So my life was Prana from 1974-77. Even though I worked in the title insurance industry in Los Angeles, my life was really devoted to Prana and just being in that energy.
Dawn: Well I came in 1984, and I remember what Prana looked like then. So I can only imagine what it was like when the Movement first took possession of the property, and where it’s come to now, so renovated.
Kay: It is.
Dawn: So what was it like at first?
Kay: Incredible. Well the interesting thing is the back of Prana, you know where you have the meditation garden now — this is even back of where the parking lot is — that was all garden. You know it was amazing fruit trees, just really amazing. We had a beautiful rose garden in front, you know it was much more pastoral in some ways. And yet, you still were living in south central LA. I mean there were gun shots going off in the apartment building next door. People screaming at night near the west wing.
So we’re in south central LA, but in some ways you still had a little bit of a sanctuary, an enclave. It wasn’t as renovated, it was much more I would say — this sounds like a stereotype — we were hippies, you know. So many of us were used to that kind of communal living, and so being in an ashram made sense.
Dawn: A lot of people, they think commune, they think wild sex, but in fact…
Kay: Oh no, oh not at all. No sex in the ashram, not at all, that was really frowned upon.
Dawn: No drugs, no sex.
Kay: Oh no. There was no alcohol either. I didn’t drink coffee or tea or diet colas or anything. We were really into pure food at that point. If people wanted their relationship or their fling, or you know, getting together and exploring what that was, they might go off for a weekend or whatever, but definitely no sex.
There was a real brotherly sisterly kind of love. It was, you know, as if you were following the band of, say, Saint Francis of Assisi. You were part of that band of monks, or whatever. It was kind of a nun-like existence for me.
It wasn’t until Insight took place in 1977 that people started to really want relationships and get into relationships, and get married. So you started to see a lot of flux with people moving in and out of Prana in the late ‘70s when Insight started to really come into a greater form.
One other thing I wanted to bring out, that I find so amazing, is that we have available to us so many tools. We have what we call the Discourses which are little booklets that we can read every month, twelve years of Discourses. I got the very first Discourse sent to me when I was in Mexico. This is in 1969. And I was so excited. Pauli who had mimeographed it was mailing them out to everybody who signed up for Discourses. She had to go to the post office especially to send it to Mexico. So, you know, we’re so blessed that we have those.
Dawn: That was Pauli Sanderson, yeah she was Pauli McGarry at the time.
Kay: Right, Pauli McGarry. Just an old friend of J-R’s who was his “girl Friday” almost. She would do everything. She would be present at seminars, bring supplies, accompany him when he would go to events and speak. She just did everything, she put together the Discourses, mimeographed them, put together materials for John-Roger, just did so many things for him. She was joined by other people, like Candy Semigran, other people came forward in the MSIA office to help her.
A lot of people came forward to help out, to do that, also NOW Productions. Look at what we have available now. We have downloads, from our computer. We used to get cassette tapes once a month, they were called Soul Awareness Tapes. We had videotapes at the time, and we’ve gone through so many formats. We’re so blessed that we have available books. I mean how many books, Dawn, has John-Roger written?
Dawn: It’s an enormous amount of books, and even more enormous amount of seminars he has given, that NOW is still preparing to be shared. Now Productions came in to take care of the media. Then USM came along, which was at that time called Koh-E-Nor.
Kay: Um hmm, right.
Dawn: So did you participate in Koh-E-Nor?
Kay: I did. And basically in the early stages, I did. I didn’t graduate that time because I started working with Insight. When I took Koh-E-Nor, it’s existence before it came the University of Santa Monica, they had their classes on Tuesday evenings. It was not a weekend format. So with my work schedule at Insight, and this was in 1983, it was not real feasible for me to attend.
What’s amazing to me is, the organizations are incredible. I mean HeartReach, Heartfelt Foundation, you know.
Kay: The Traveler’s Foundation for John Morton. John-Roger Foundation. I mean there are just so many organizations that have come into beingness, you know, through this umbrella. It’s amazing, so there are so many, avenues of Spirit whether it’s through taking USM class, or taking a Peace Theological Seminary class. There are so many avenues.
When I was at Prana, from 1974-77, I actually helped start some of the classes back then. This is before it became Peace Theological Seminary. I just felt it was time to have some classes, so we had classes in the evenings. Ozzie Delgadillo, who’s been in the Movement a long time, taught Spanish. And we had classes just in accounting. We had some really fun things to do, it wasn’t so much of a spiritual focus, but just you know, practical things that people could do and participate in.
Dawn: I never heard this before.
Kay: Yes, and then Vivian Joseph, who lived at Prana at that time, started to want to do much more formal classes. And this is before Angela Bell had moved into Prana and really started to concretize Peace Theological Seminary and College of Philosophy. So it became more and more just from a grass roots level being there at Prana, to being Peace Theological Seminary and College of Philosophy which now has classes on the Internet and all over the world.
When I lived in Minnesota in 1977 we were doing classes. You know, Prana classes. Basically, they were mail order, I would say. We would get maybe a tape, very informal, and we would do our written homework, and then we would send it all the way to LA, to Prana, for somebody to read.
Kay: Minnesota also had an ashram too. I’ll just give you a little highlight on that too. But just to go back to answer that more fully, around the early part of the ‘80s classes started to formulate outside of the LA area.
Dawn: What was the center in Minnesota like?
Kay: Shortly after moving to Minnesota, around October of ’77, I moved into the other ashram. It was the only other approved ashram outside of Prana. I think it started about 1976 or so. J-R would come with his staff and visit Minnesota at least once a year.
Dawn: What city was it?
Kay: We were in Minneapolis.
Dawn: Um hmm.
Kay: We were pretty small, I think there were about seven of us at that time.
Dawn: Was it a big house, or?
Kay: It was a house. And if you know Minneapolis, there are many big houses around, especially around the wonderful lakes. So it was really a beautiful experience. Very, very communal but much smaller than Prana.
Dawn: Um hmm.
Kay: Prana had maybe eighty people when I moved in. This household in Minneapolis had about seven to nine.
Dawn: Um hmm.
Kay: It was a real different experience.
Dawn: Much more intimate.
Dawn: So when did initiations and ordinations start happening in your experience?
Kay: Well, in my experience, 1971. I was engaged to a man who was in the Movement. We got engaged in 1971. We were going for our aura balance, in late 1971. An aura balance is just basically using a pendulum and clearing the energy fields, the auric field surrounding the body.
So we were there getting a touch up aura balance and Philip Anthony said that John-Roger is now doing this thing called initiation. He said: “You’ve been going to seminars for over two years, would you like to get initiated today?” And we thought well, sounds good to us, we didn’t really know what that meant. And he took both me and my finance and he actually gave us the same initiatory tone but then he individualized it for us. So we got to meet with him individually and ask questions and things like that, after our aura balance.
We were dumb struck. I mean it was pretty amazing, but sounded good, why not get initiated? It’s a pretty standard process now.
I didn’t even know I was going to get ordained on the day I got ordained either, which was June of 1972. Back then there was no ministerial board. So my first initiation at least, the formal one, and my ordination were kind of surprises. Back then — to go into ordination just a little bit — what we did is we wrote the staff. We would write a letter of intent and explain what we would like to do as a ministry. For me it was to do children’s seminars.
Kay: People would get selected if that was for your highest good. And then you get your ordination.
Dawn: When you said children’s seminars, were these children Insight seminars or?
Kay: No, these were children’s seminars. There were a few of us who wanted to do MSIA seminars at the time. Melinda Davis and Jackie Peterson, we were really interested in somehow spreading the teachings for the little ones, definitely. So I got ordained, in my mind thinking I was going to do children’s seminars. I actually did them in Santa Barbara, and the Ventura area, and when I was at Prana for awhile. So it was really amazing, some of the people, Chuck and Marcus Moore, were two of the children, although were really, really young. Marcus has two youngsters of his own now. So it’s been really interesting for me to see some of these people grow up and expand, and some are parents now.
Dawn: Where was the Light Castle?
Kay: The Light Castle was around the Cerritos area. And what the Light Castle was, it was a home where people lived. I remember Rick Greene used to live there, and there were mainly young people, and J-R would go and give seminars there. Recordings of a lot of those early, early seminars are from the Light Castle.
Dawn: That was before Prana was purchased?
Kay: That was before Prana, definitely.
Dawn: Did you go on any of the PAT travels with J-R?
Kay: I went on PAT IV in 1985. And that was the second PAT IV. The first PAT IV was in 1984, in the summer time. And that was not mine to go on. And I want to underscore something I said in the very beginning of our interview — the timing is perfect. I cried when the plane took off in LA when my beloveds were on the first PAT IV. I wanted so much to be back in Jerusalem because J-R had read a lifetime for me with Jesus. And I knew I had to go to Jerusalem this lifetime. So I saved my money, and struggled, but people supported me. One lady gave me a thousand dollars, my relatives gave me hundreds of dollars, and I went on PAT IV in 1985. It was over thirty-five days. It was March and April of 1985.
Kay: First of all we went to Italy, to Rome, we went to Assisi –
Kay: We went to Egypt, you know, toured the Nile, went to so many different initiation spots and beautiful temples. Then we went to Israel and we also went to Greece. So, we just had an amazing experience, you know, that was over a month long. We celebrated two Easters. We got baptized in the River Jordan on Easter Sunday. The Western Easter. Then when we went to Greece and we had Greek Orthodox Easter. This also took place at the same time as Passover, so we had Passover contiguous with back-to-back with Easter. We not only had a week of retreat at Nof Ginosar — we spent a week doing the processes — we had a Seder, a wonderful Seder. And the next day, Easter Sunday, we got baptized in the River Jordan, and were greeted wholeheartedly in Jerusalem on Easter Sunday.
Dawn: Umm very special.
Kay: I feel I am still on PAT IV. You know I look at the book and the pictures I put together, kind of like a memory book of PAT IV. I am still on that. It was truly the — as Herman Hess has said – “the journey to the east.” It’s so alive with me. Just as going to my first seminar and meeting J-R on April 8th, 1969, you know, 1985 on PAT IV is still alive in my consciousness. So to me, that kind of displays the multidimensionality. The timing, it’s all perfect.
Dawn: I also have the sense of being an emissary of Light in those places you went to.
Kay: Exactly, definitely. We were really, it was a Peace Awareness Training. We were establishing peace in the Middle East, in Rome, in Assisi. You know, not only were we walking in peace doing our own individual peace process, working to find peace in our group, but we were there as peacemakers –
Kay: – and bringers of peace and Light bearers. So it was an amazing process.
Dawn: Wonderful, wonderful. Is there any other gem that you feel called to share that we haven’t talked about?
Kay: Oh, I would just like to say that there is no such thing as, to me, not being in the Movement. There have been many of our wonderful beloveds that have passed on. You know, Reuben Paris, and Muriel Engle. To me she’s still alive in my heart. There are people that have so called “left the Movement,” in other words, they’re not active. To me it’s ongoing, it doesn’t really matter. There is just this is-ness, you know, even though it’s wonderful to look at those of us who came into the Movement back in ‘68 or ‘69, to me it’s ongoing. The Movement is on many levels, and that just underscores the eternal quality of Spirit, and our unfolding nature. So, it’s great to look back on those early years and yet, to me, there’s always the eternal now that we’re moving into and forward with.
It’s ongoing growth, and you know, I started relatively late in terms of the whole DSS Doctor of Spiritual Science process that’s offered through Peace Theological Seminary and College of Philosophy. To me it was the right time. You know, there may have been people ten years before I began, and that’s ok too. It’s just all perfect.
Dawn: Yeah, it is. Well thank you so much, for participating with us Kay and sharing all these gems from your experiences with John-Roger and the Traveler all these many years.
Kay: I want to just say, if I could extend a blessing that all those who may be reading this can be just lifted and know that the blessing is so present. Because truly, the blessings already are.
Kay: Baruch Bashan.
Dawn: Baruch Bashan.