In transcending the Soul into consciousness of God, there is no delineation of individuality — only the oneness, the completeness of God, and there we can become a co-creator with God by being God and extending down to many other levels to create. – John-Roger
This Q&A with John-Roger was first published in the Movement Newspaper, October 1976
In 1976, John-Roger was interviewed on Innervisions, a radio program conducted by Jacob Blass in Santa Barbara, California. This is Part 2 of that Interview.
INNERVISIONS: You’ve told us that one of the aims of the Movement of Spiritual Inner Awareness is Soul Transcendence. I’m wondering if you’d give a definition of that.
J-R: Well, let’s define Soul first. We can’t really do that because it’s invisible, but let’s call it the true self, or the essence of God in the physical body, or that extension of Spirit that is individualized and can be aware of itself.
IN: Which means it’s in the physical body.
J-R: Yes, it resides within the body. It’s not the body, but it extends through levels of the body as vehicle to find out this part of God’s levels of bodies. So that would be the thing called Soul that lives when the body dies or keeps the body going when it is sound asleep and the mind is supposedly not there and the emotions are quiet. That’s the energy unit we call Soul. As for transcendence, if we’re referring to Soul travel, then we’re saying to travel in the Soul. But in transcending the Soul into consciousness of God, there is no delineation of individuality — only the oneness, the completeness of God, and there we can become a co-creator with God by being God and extending down to many other levels to create.
IN: Well, transcending means a journey on one level, of going one place to another. Where does the trip start?
J-R: The trip always starts here and now — no matter when that time appears, and we make it by focusing our attention. And often we want to see God, we want to know. I don’t want to take J-R’s word for it, or Jake’s, or anybody else’s. I want to know. Well, here are some procedures. See if these procedures help you know. And part of the procedure may be silting down, learning to find out what is the body, what is the imagination, what are the emotions, what is the mind. When you find out, you say, “who knows, all that?” You say. “Well, I do,” That’s the part we want to work with now. When we know what the rest is, the part that’s left is called the Soul or you or the great I Am. It’s been called a lot of things, Christ, cosmic, Buddha. Let’s not get hung up on the word level. But that’s the part we want to work with, to have it transcend this level so that it re-cognizes its oneness with God. So it’s not really in a state of “ignorance” or “evil,” it’s in a state of unification.
IN: How can I or anybody else learn to identify the movement of that consciousness within me? How can I feel or know something that I’m experiencing on that level?
J-R: Well if an individual just happened to have this happen spontaneously somewhere on the planet, they’d probably lock him up. If they were in a group that was involved in something similar, the group would be supportive and hold him, saying you’ve broken through, you’re in the next level. Esalen did a lot of this work quite a few years ago when people were breaking through. The group was supportive, and even though it might look like a person had gone crazy, they had just broken through a level and they were trying to re-adapt to a new form of behavior, that would still be compatible with the previous behavior, but not the same: so they could function here or be functional. When a person says, “I would like to get into this,” we’d tell them to come to a seminar and learn the techniques and then practice the techniques. There are no magic wands — at least I haven’t found any. And even though you can extend a great deal from the Traveler Consciousness to someone who wants to study with it, we actually become saviors of ourselves by taking that step forward to doing it. And when we step forward, then that other consciousness meets with us and starts validating the experience. So when you start to have the experience of these other levels, the Traveler Consciousness validates it for you. People communicate their experiences to me and I explain it in more detail to them. Often they had forgotten the detail I explain. It’s like, “Oh, then that was real.” We say, “Well, it’s all real — it just happened to be in the invisible.
IN: Where were you when it happened?
J-R: I could have been any number of places within their levels of consciousness in the out-of-body experience. When they’re having an experience within their own body such as blood running through their veins, I don’t validate that. I say “That’s yours. You were doing that, so you decide what you want to do with that.” When it’s an experience that I’m involved with in spirit, through the Traveler Consciousness, we’re alleviating negativity and learning the higher levels of consciousness. Often I am the perpetrator of the action that took place to release the negativity. I’m like the one who runs the machine and all they saw was the machine, but somebody pushed the button to turn the machine on.
IN: I’m curious about the way you work when you say you’re the perpetrator of it. Are you there in your physical body saying it’s time we gave Charlie Smith a shot of some medicine?
J-R: While my physical body is in bed, or in a car, or in a movie, or sitting reading a book, my consciousness is there. And while I’m in the physical body reading that book or just meditating, I’m aware of these other levels going on, but there’s no need to focus on the body because it’s taking care of itself. While we’re talking, there’s no need to focus on your toe and the blood going through it; it’s taking care of itself. It’s already set up that way. So you don’t have to keep refocusing on it. But when you get up to walk, if your foot had gone to sleep, you’ll focus energy on it and kick it and stomp it to bring the blood in it to make it come back to normal position for you. You’re just more physically aware of it at this point, but it doesn’t make any difference. It doesn’t make any difference what level I’m on. What does make a difference is what level the person is on that I’m working with. And it doesn’t matter who I am, but who are you?
IN: I guess a person who would, in their mind, be giving up a large amount of responsibility to another person, and saying okay, I accept you as my teacher, they would like to know who that person is.
J-R: But they don’t give up any responsibilities when they do that. Because people said to me “okay, J-R, I give it all up to you” and I say, “Fine, would you please handle this area you just gave up to me?” And I don’t get it all caught up in the mish-mash of the glamour and the illusion of the planet and I’ll assist you. When they realize it’s not theirs, often they take better care of it, because I don’t want the owner to come by and see when I’ve done a terrible job with their things. And, actually, they say “I’m so much better with it because I’m neutral, I don’t own it but it’s yours and I’m really just taking care of it.” And that’s fine, that’s really responsible, but who are they doing it for? Themselves. So when a person gives up to me they’re really giving up to their own individuality, to become responsible for that. And if they don’t, it’ll just beat them in the head. So in a sense, they don’t give anything up to me. I am more, of a reflector, like somebody who is a wayshower. I show the signs and I read the signs for them, and I say “if you want to walk ahead you’re following the muck and mire, or you can go down this trail. Here are the signs, which one do you want to follow?” They say, “Oh, I think I’d like to see what the muck and mire are about.” I say “okay, right here.” I stand by them, and when they get into the muck and mire they may realize they got beyond their ability level. When they ask for help, I just start pulling them back out. Sometimes the muck sticks. Then you have to do a lot of repair work before they get back on the trail. Well, since that’s part of the Traveler’s consciousness, it does that also.
IN: What happens to the Traveler Consciousness when you die?
J-R: Who’s the “you” that you’re referring to? Oh, my physical body. When the physical body dies, that Traveler Consciousness will be given over to somebody else in the physical body. Traditionally, it is called the mantel or the rod of power or the spiritual Light or the Word of God. Spirit refers to it as Nam. It’s given to another individual so that the Consciousness is here on this level also. Well, it wouldn’t be the Traveler Consciousness if it wasn’t on all levels.
IN: Which means that it was given to you. How long does the line of people having the Mystical Traveler Consciousness go back?
J-R: From the very beginning of any existence, there has always been a Traveler with this energy on these levels. Part of that time, there were no levels here. In other words, when creation was created, the Word was what created it and that Word is the Sound of God or this Nam that is the Traveler Consciousness. And creation is set now — it’s just running itself through.
J-R: That’s a heavy one.
IN: Yeah, I’m just going to let that one go by. The word “karma” has been bandied around a lot, and everybody who’s familiar with it has their own conception of what it is. Can you give us some illumination into the workings of karma?
J-R: Karma does mean quite a few things to a lot of people. To people who are spiritually evolved, spiritual masters, it means guidelines, reference points of how to work with the individual. To the individual who is in the karma, it often means the inability to do. To those people watching the person with their karma, it’s often called “action.” “You did it, that’s your action. I heard you do it. Why did you do it?” They say, “Well, I just couldn’t help myself.” So it’s perceived as guidelines, as inability, and often as reaction or action. The approach to it should be that of dharma, selfless duty. You don’t beat your head against it, you move and do that which you can do. Often, in that stepping back from the tree that we beat our heads against, we can see the pathway through the forest. Then our approach becomes active or self-directed, not reactive.
In Soul consciousness, we get above the forest and see where the trail is, and what’s in there, and we walk very happily through the forest being of service, knowing we can get out, knowing there’s nothing in there that we can’t handle. Karma, on the other hand, is going through it in fear of the darkness, creating monsters that don’t exist.
IN: How is the information from the dream state relayed from those states of consciousness to this state of consciousness?
J-R: Sometimes by a feeling of “deja vu” — I’ve done this before and know that it works out. This is a sense of knowing. You just know. The other would be intuitive. You could guess it through pretty well, like seeing a movie, saying that the butler did it. You know the movie just started but it turns out the butler did it. So in one way, you’re not worried about the movie, you know what is going to happen; and you can enjoy it all the way through, knowing what the answer is.
IN: Within the workings of karma is the concept of `’reincarnation” — that people are coming onto this planet with specific things that have to be worked out. On what level is it being planned that these things are to be worked out? Who’s doing the planning?
J-R: Well, this gets into the really phantasmagorical approach – I’ll see if we can do it by thumbnail sketch. Let’s say that you die from this level and you go into Spirit; and when you leave here, the level to which your intellect has grown in Light awareness is where you automatically go in Spirit. At that point, you meet with what we call “karmic members,” or the “Karmic Board.”
IN: These are actual beings?
J-R: Yes, actual beings of consciousness. Call them angels if you’d like, or guardians or ambassadors. With them, you review that life and what the Soul came in to work in the past. The Soul would then automatically evaluate its success. Based upon the success level it achieved, it would determine what it would be doing in another lifetime. Then you would blueprint it; that’s when free will is utilized. There are all sorts of variables. If you saw a blueprint of a Soul’s incarnation, it would boggle your mind. Computers here couldn’t handle all the variables. And then you embody. Some people call it reincarnation, but you only incarnate once and then you may re-embody. When you’re here, you exercise your choices. Free will happens only when you’re more highly evolved, because only God has free will. So when you make your will the same as God’s, it’s free. But prior to that, you do the individuality — I usually call it “won’t power” instead of will power – “I won’t do this–no, I won’t do that and you cant make me.” In the free choice level, you can make a lot of choices and they’re all free. Whichever one you make, though, institutes the next choices that come up. And we’re held responsible for them, whether we like it or not. A lot of people don’t want to believe that, but all they have to do to prove it is look at their lives.
IN: Most of the ideas we’ve been discussing are ideas that we’re here to move ourselves upward, and to move into what we call “Soul Transcendence” or “Soul travel.” To me, on one level that means the whole — everything going on is basically to leave these levels and go to higher levels. How can one be in this world and be involved in everything in this world, and yet be detached enough from it to be able to go into a higher level of consciousness?
J-R: Well, I’m not too sure you can be involved in everything in this level. I think part of our responsibility in exercising free will is to not try to go to four dances in one night, and go to a smorgasbord and eat a little bit of everything that’s on the table. We exercise discrimination, selectivity of what we want to be involved in and what we’re going to get out of it and the length of time involved.
Often people say, “I couldn’t handle it — I got out of it.” Well, getting out may have been the only way they could have handled it. That’s handling it. People say that’s a cop-out, but we’ve got to watch out so that we don’t define ourselves into a poor attitude.
IN: Within that selectivity, do you have any guidelines that you could recommend in terms of when to know when to go into something and to have the experience of going into it, even though you know it’s going to be a heavy one — as opposed to saying, “I don’t want anything to do with that,” and walking away from it?
J-R: Yeah, I would say get into the Soul body, transcend the physical, take a look at it and see what it is, and then move back and walk through it.
IN: How about another way to do it?
J-R: Well, then you can use your crystal ball or Ouija board, or just do what we do in a lot of religions — have faith, and call upon the higher power through the process of prayer; attune to it and walk through it, knowing that nothing will be given to you that you really can’t handle — that God is the one who’s really running all the mechanisms, and out of God comes all things. There’s a great security in that. It’s like, “Hey, even my insecurities come out of God. How neat. What am I to learn from this?” That security is not on this level, only in God. You move to it and you say, “Thanks for the lesson.” I look at this particular level as a classroom. And the rest reveals to us what we have to learn next — not to reveal our failure to us, but to reveal to us where we lacked preparation, where we really weren’t thoroughly up on what was going on. And we get a chance to see what it is.
IN: Yeah, one of the things that you say quite often is very meaningful to me — that our experiences are like stepping stones or stumbling blocks. That certainly helped me a lot to realize that they’re just taking me up to the next level, upward, rather than having to trip over something.
J-R: Yes, a lot of people say sometimes, “What about that negative experience? What’s so good about that?” Well, you use it as a reference point to never go into those levels again, and that’s good.
IN: Why is it that probably 99% of the people don’t have a recognition of their Soul or of the action that takes place on these other levels of consciousness in blueprinting the life plan?
J-R: When we’re in Spirit and see how clear and easy it is, we have the confidence to take on a crippled body or a blind body — it seems like a snap. “I’m only going to be there fifty years — that’s easy.” Looking at all eternity, it’s like a snap of the finger. In those upper levels, we can see all the variables; our attitude is extremely positive. There’s nothing we can’t do — we are God.
Then we re-embody and pick up other levels of consciousness called “sheaths” or “bodies.” Each one dims the spiritual vision, until we finally arrive in the physical level without the spiritual vision per se. The mind is not in the Spirit, so there is no memory of the Spirit in the mind — the mind was not there, the Soul was there. The mind is in the lesser level. The emotions weren’t there, so we don’t feel it. The physical body wasn’t there, so it doesn’t know it. So we come into this level, and there’s no record here of it; there’s no way to know. It was purposefully set up that way so that we would then gain the strength of Soul consciousness; because even though the Soul is perfect, it hasn’t necessarily been tried to find that it’s got all it’s power going. But if that power becomes useful to it, so will-power or free will become useful rather than negative towards us. And the negative will-power sets up more blocks and illusions because it’s also creating out of the level of Spirit.
So we’re creating all the time; we’re either promoting, creating, or allowing everything that’s happening to us. We even allow annoying things to happen until we realize that we don’t need them anymore. Then we move to another level, and we are able to change patterns of procedure by switching the attitude. If you walk into the ocean up to your neck, you know that if you’re going to get out, there’s primarily one way to do it, and that’s the same way you went in. Just walk out. But if you keep focusing on the car and what you’re going to do when you get home and rest, it’ll make the walk out much easier. If you look at the water, you can get lost again in negativity; because there are very few reference points, and the tides finally pull you out deeper. Your attitude causes you to lose your focus. Keep focusing upon the car or the spirit of it. Or, most importantly, why didn’t you leave before you got so exhausted, so that you had your reserve there? Instead, you waited until you were so exhausted that you didn’t know how to get out, and then a boat had to come to get you. It’s called the Traveler.
CLICK HERE TO READ PART 1
WATCH A SHORT VIDEO WITH JOHN-ROGER ON SOUL TRANSCENDENCE